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hilofoz

No more Appletalk in Snow Leopard!!!

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I haven’t yet found any threads on this topic yet, so I thought it was time to start one. Bad news for old printers on Appletalk and Snow Leopard. So be warned!!!!

 

Snow Leopard does not support AppleTalk anymore.

 

Worse still, I have tried configuring my nine year old Xerox C410 Docuprint A3+ printer for IPP or LPD (it has these capabilities). This just did not work as the printer registered as busy or paused (depending on what I did).

I contacted Apple support about this issue, and they reckoned that it was hardware and software incompatibility, and that I should complain to Apple about this. I cannot even use the IP system on ordinary Leopard, yet I can get the IP address with the on board printer pages on Firefox (with popups enabled.)

 

Fortunately, I only installed Snow Leopard on my MacBook Pro, so I have not upgraded on the other machines (thank goodness).

 

The only way I can connect Snow Leopard to this printer is via the Parallel port, using a Parallel to USB cable! This works, but there is a glitch with it as before every print job, I have to pause the print job and then restart it.

 

I have another printer that is a QMS 2060 black and white printer, and so far I have had problems with trying to connect the Parallel to USB and make it work that way. Again, it works problem free on Appletalk.

 

This is absolutely ridiculous, and even if I could get both printers to work, I most probably would have to get some kind of network bridge so that I would not have to have two computers on at the same time if someone else was trying to print on the other one.

 

Bad choice, Apple

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I know you don't want to hear this but .... you are using 9 year old technology. The fact that your printers still have a Parallel port should tell you something. It is not the responsibility of Apple to write updated drivers for old Hardware, it is the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer. I would contact Xerox ( but they want to sell you a new printer and probably will tell you that device is no longer supported ).

 

Also, Appletalk was originally designed in 1984 and has been replaced because TCP/IP technology makes it obsolete. And it is also probably the age of your printers that is/would cause the issue with having to have two computers on at the same time. Remember that Parallel ports, while they can be adapted to connect to USB, just don't communicate in the same way that USB does ... the only other option would be for Apple to continue to include Parallel technology ( a parallel port ) on all their new computers .... and no computer company still does that. Besides, I'll bet for less than $100 you can find a brand new printer that will replace the need to even have two printers.

 

You can't expect Apple to maintain every old hardware standard ever created .... that's what Windows tries to do and look where it's gotten them ;)

Edited by Dolphbucs

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I find your post both condescending and very unhelpful. Firstly, this printer I am talking about costs $11,000AU (and a new one of these would cost about the same!), and I even had to get a new motherboard for it four years ago ($4000AU all up), when it failed. It is not just an old printer like a Laserwriter or Dot Matrix and I know full well that you can get cheap postscript printers today for a few hundred dollars. This printer is a CMYK Xerox C410 DocuPrint that is a proofing printer, it prints oversize A3, has Fiery Tools as well as Adobe PS 3 on board. Its networking capabilities are Appletalk, IP as well as a parallel port. I will be running this printer for few years yet, until it has catastrophic mechanical failure. Don't think I will be the only one with this problem. There will be many business out there who will need to reinstall their OS when they discover that they can no longer use AppleTalk over their ethernet network. Maybe you should look at the lists on the Apple website. Here is just one of them:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2073321

 

 

I know you don't want to hear this but .... you are using 9 year old technology. The fact that your printers still have a Parallel port should tell you something. It is not the responsibility of Apple to write updated drivers for old Hardware, it is the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer. I would contact Xerox ( but they want to sell you a new printer and probably will tell you that device is no longer supported ).

 

Yes, of course I have contacted Xerox and they won’t fix or update this printer anymore, and that does not bode well for all the environmental concerns. It makes this all a farce. Also, I may not have many posts on this list, but I do know a lot about this stuff, and have been working with printers, Appletalk on high end prepress systems since 1988. I expected a more considered and knowledgeable answer than this throw off which assumes I don’t know much and have not put in hours of my time to try to find a workaround!

 

Also, Appletalk was originally designed in 1984 and has been replaced because TCP/IP technology makes it obsolete. And it is also probably the age of your printers that is/would cause the issue with having to have two computers on at the same time. Remember that Parallel ports, while they can be adapted to connect to USB, just don't communicate in the same way that USB does ... the only other option would be for Apple to continue to include Parallel technology ( a parallel port ) on all their new computers .... and no computer company still does that. Besides, I'll bet for less than $100 you can find a brand new printer that will replace the need to even have two printers.

 

You can't expect Apple to maintain every old hardware standard ever created .... that's what Windows tries to do and look where it's gotten them ;)

 

Don’t think that I have not spent two days trying all sorts of things to make the IP capabilities of this printer work, as well as being on the phone three times to Apple tech support. Let me tell you that one of them said it was stupid of Apple to do this, and I had three of them telling me to complain to Apple about leaving it out. Why phase it out? What harm was it doing?

 

 

Anyway, because I have worked out a way of printing from my laptop, I will not be bothering to upgrade my other computers to SL, to find I will have more hassles.

Edited by hilofoz

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Sorry you feel that way. I was not trying to be condescending ... just trying to be realistic. I have worked the past 3 Olympic games as a contractor for Kodak providing services for accredited photographers so I know all about high end equipment. I am, however, not familiar with the models you mentioned and did not realize their complexity. However, that does not change the fact that printers of any kind that use parallel ports are using outdated technology. I'll bet there is still some great equipment out there that still uses serial port technology also ... but how many computer systems still support that. With newer equipment, I'll bet the lack of Appletalk will greatly be a non-issue. But please remember that Snow leopard is designed for its newest hardware ( Intel processors ). That's why they plan to keep supporting Leopard for the foreseeable future ... it won't run on older PowerPC computers that are much newer than the printers you have. Apple probably assumes that anyone using older technology will be sticking with the older OS as their computer equipment is also older. Yes I am sure there will be hundreds of businesses that this will affect adversely ... but that is a small number compared to the thousands, if not tens of thousands, that have long since stopped using Appletalk.

 

Anyway, in your situation, I would think that staying with Leopard would be the way you want to go. Why experiment with a new OS ... especially one with so few noticeable improvements ... when your business is obviously so hardware specific? Going back to using my experience as an example, at the olympics we were using some software for processing accreditation badges that went back to Windows 95 ... it works perfectly for what we needed but didn't play well with later versions of Windows ... so we just used older OS installations to run it rather than trying to upgrade anything. You situation sounds similar. I agree with your last statement ... by all means you should not upgrade any more machines to SL ... you seem to be fine where you are and I can't think of any reason you would want to make the move to SL anyway ... especially this close to its release.

 

BTW, the reason I posted in this thread in the first place was that I felt there was really NO solution to your issue ( in fact, by the title of this thread and the nature of your first post, it sounded more like a statement of displeasure than a request for help or a search for a solution ). As such, I felt rather than let this thread just sit here without a response, I would at least try to offer a possible explanation for Apple's decision.

 

That all being said you do raise an interesting question in my mind about your discussion with Apple. When you say you were on the phone with Apple Tech support I assume you meant Applecare. In the past when I have talked to them about a feature that has been removed they have always either said something like "we'll make note of that" or connected me to someone with whom I could discuss my displeasure at the deletion. In fact, when Leopard was initially released, it was due to much such input that Apple altered the way stacks worked in a later point release. I'm curious as to how they suggested you complain to Apple about them leaving out Appletalk support. Who did they suggest you contact and how ? I'm just curious because this seems to be a change from the way it was handled in the past and if there is a new contact point I'd like to know about it rather than bothering Applecare in the future.

Edited by Dolphbucs

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Just to play devil's advocate here... You mention serial ports - my brand new shiny xserve has a serial port, as does my Cisco security appliance and my Promise VTrak RAIDs.

 

Not that I have anything constructive to add to the discussion, so I'll shut up now.

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My point exactly Graham .... I'm sure there are many devices out there that still have serial ports .... but it is considered legacy technology and not many new PC's ( if any ) have one. Which means in order to connect such devices to those newer PC's ( or consumer Macs for that matter ) you have to use adapters that may or may not properly emulate the interface. If Apple chooses to support such older technology, great. But we can hardly expect that it is their responsibility to allocate resources to such things if there are other, more pressing, needs for those resources ... like, say, the "Fuzzy Icon" syndrome in Snow Leopard that seems to be affecting most everyone.

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… I am, however, not familiar with the models you mentioned and did not realize their complexity.

 

I did mention that it was a high end printer.

 

However, that does not change the fact that printers of any kind that use parallel ports are using outdated technology. I'll bet there is still some great equipment out there that still uses serial port technology also ... but how many computer systems still support that. With newer equipment, I'll bet the lack of Appletalk will greatly be a non-issue. But please remember that Snow leopard is designed for its newest hardware ( Intel processors ).

 

Serial port outdated, yes, parallel port, no. I do not believe that the high speed parallel printer ports are outdated. These are very different technologies. I do remember the old serial ports and the AppleTalk boxes. Very old stuff. A parallel port looks more like a SCSI port with a number of pins, not like the small round serial ports. BTW., this and my other printers are hooked up via ethernet cables via my router, and connect using AppleTalk protocol. So if you come into my room, you will see blue CAT5 cables coming from all of my printers, not grey serial port cables, and AppleTalk boxes. It is the software allowing the handshaking to continue.

 

That's why they plan to keep supporting Leopard for the foreseeable future ... it won't run on older PowerPC computers that are much newer than the printers you have. Apple probably assumes that anyone using older technology will be sticking with the older OS as their computer equipment is also older. Yes I am sure there will be hundreds of businesses that this will affect adversely ... but that is a small number compared to the thousands, if not tens of thousands, that have long since stopped using Appletalk.

 

I wouldn’t say that. AppleTalk is just a protocol, and it is just a networking issue, therefore a programming issue. I cannot see the big deal in having a choice to install that protocol as an option on Snow Leopard, just as Rosetta is. I think you are guessing about small numbers still using AppleTalk. Wait till the big design studios start installing Snow Leopard. I believe a deluge of complaints will be hitting Apple, with many annoyed customers. Look at the Forums at Apple, and there are now pages and pages about this, and we are only a couple of weeks since people got the new OS. There will be many people out there in studios who have not installed it yet, so have not encountered the problem!

 

Anyway, in your situation, I would think that staying with Leopard would be the way you want to go. Why experiment with a new OS ... especially one with so few noticeable improvements ... when your business is obviously so hardware specific?

 

I would like to think that I could seamlessly upgrade to an ostensibly better operating system in the future, with better security etc.

 

Going back to using my experience as an example, at the olympics we were using some software for processing accreditation badges that went back to Windows 95 ... it works perfectly for what we needed but didn't play well with later versions of Windows ... so we just used older OS installations to run it rather than trying to upgrade anything. You situation sounds similar. I agree with your last statement ... by all means you should not upgrade any more machines to SL ... you seem to be fine where you are and I can't think of any reason you would want to make the move to SL anyway ... especially this close to its release.

 

I agree with this, and anyway, I can now print using a shared printer on my laptop which is being used as a test machine.

 

BTW, the reason I posted in this thread in the first place was that I felt there was really NO solution to your issue ( in fact, by the title of this thread and the nature of your first post, it sounded more like a statement of displeasure than a request for help or a search for a solution ). As such, I felt rather than let this thread just sit here without a response, I would at least try to offer a possible explanation for Apple's decision.

 

Fair enough, but why be so adamant. As one technician mentioned, enough people complained about the loss of a Firewire port on the lower end laptops, Apple listened and brought it back in.

 

That all being said you do raise an interesting question in my mind about your discussion with Apple. When you say you were on the phone with Apple Tech support I assume you meant Applecare.

 

Not Applecare, as far as I know, but it most probably was. They wanted my machine SN. It is just the tech support line you get when you phone Apple. After all, there is no problem with any of my machines.

 

I'm curious as to how they suggested you complain to Apple about them leaving out Appletalk support. Who did they suggest you contact and how ? I'm just curious because this seems to be a change from the way it was handled in the past and if there is a new contact point I'd like to know about it rather than bothering Applecare in the future.

 

Just the usual channels: the forums, and the contact Apple website concerns etc.

Edited by hilofoz

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Something interesting. I needed to buy a new printer (Black and White) and I ended up buying a very reasonably priced Xerox Colour A4 Printer. I set it up using IVP4 DHCP and was able to get it working on all my systems. Now, the interesting thing is that I tried to do the same thing with my older Xerox, and I still cannot get it networked over IP. Not even in Leopard. Now all I can put it down to is perhaps the networking of the older printer is not compatible, as it seemed that I needed to use DHCP with the new machine, and that is not on the older one. So, perhaps it is the network card itself which is faulty or inadequate, and that is on board the machine. Xerox makes it clear (in the documentation for the new machine) to use LDP and not IP for the Macintosh. I also noted that it did not work when I had it set on straight IPV4 and not DHCP. The plot thickens...

Edited by hilofoz

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here's what I would do:

 

on one of your 10.5 Mac's open Print and Fax from the System Preferences then click the Xerox C410 Docuprint. next click Share this Printer. you will be prompted to turn Printer Sharing on. go ahead and do that.

 

from the 10.6 Mac open System Preferences and add the Shared printer. 

 

now try to print. because 10.5 is still AppleTalk compatible it should act as a translator for the 10.6 Mac that can't talk this way.

 

a very good verbose guide for the steps I described is here.

Edited by johnfoster

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here's what I would do:

 

on one of your 10.5 Mac's open Print and Fax from the System Preferences then click the Xerox C410 Docuprint. next click Share this Printer. you will be prompted to turn Printer Sharing on. go ahead and do that.

 

from the 10.6 Mac open System Preferences and add the Shared printer.

 

now try to print. because 10.5 is still AppleTalk compatible it should act as a translator for the 10.6 Mac that can't talk this way.

 

a very good verbose guide for the steps I described is here.

 

What he said.

This is such a basic solution, I thought you probably tried it already, but often the simplest solutions (or rather work arounds) are overlooked.

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I do not believe that the high speed parallel printer ports are outdated.

 

Sorry to respond to a year old thread, but for the record, whether anyone personally considers Parallel Port technology outdated or not, Apple has not included Parallel ports on any harddware since the first iMac. As such, at least Apple considers PP's to be legacy technology and thus that would explain why they discontinued support in Snow Leopard .... and that was my point.

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