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maxman

It "hacking" frontrow wrong?

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And guess who causes more suffering.... people downloading frontrow, or apple forcing people to buy an imac if they want frontrow. :lol:

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its a great program and everybody wants it, so why does apple nt sell it?

they want people to guy iMacs.

 

Will they ever release it legaly for all macs? (macworld expo is coming up soon)

 

Think about the Might mouse.

When released apple said thaat 'this is only something you can buy seperatly' (or something along those lines)

 

but when this new iMac was released... you look down to the keyboard and you see a mighty mouse attatched. It came included!

 

Will we se a repeat of apples "look at this, but dont touch..........no you can have it"

or will we all have todownload illegal versions of it.

 

As steve jobs himself onece said, "if people cant downoad music legaly, they do it illegaly. If they have an option to do it legally, the will. Everybody winns"

 

Just replace 'music' with 'front row'...

 

 

hmmmmmmm

 

 

 

Well, good luck on making up your mind...

 

Rozza

 

 

 

 

PS I am also christian but i do have a version of front row. :P

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I have a car that is not for sale. It is my car, I own it, and I reserve the right to decide when I will offer it for sale.

 

Does the fact that I am not offering my car for sale give someone else the right to take it from me?

 

I believe that Front Row is the property of Apple Computers. I believe that this fact gives Apple the legal and ethical right to determine how and under what circumstances this program will be distributed.

 

Now consider that you have a literally infinate supply of these cars, surely to deprive people of these cars is wrong in its own right. I think it is fine to download the program, I dont think there is any morel objection to downloading it.

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If you are a Christian, then I suppose/hope you believe in absolute truth. If you believe in absolute truth, this is not only wrong for you or someone else, but everybody.

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i think there is a point that alot of people are missing, as they are not christians. the bible clearly states:

 

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men

1 Peter 2:13 (NIV)

 

This mean obey the law, whether you think it is moral or not (except when the law directly conflicts with the bible)

 

i think this makes the question of morality defunct, at least for christians, as it is illegal and therefore against the bible's instruction.

 

this only applies to christians, but i also think it is immoral for non-christians.

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I know this thread is a bit old, but I'll add my two cents to this philosophical discussion.

 

#1. I never limited the definition of morality to "not causing suffering." There is also the idea of working for the betterment of mankind and the idea behind the Golden Rule. Morality can even be extended from there.

 

#2. Victimless crimes really aren't victimless. Also, not all things done to better mankind actually better mankind (cough...the Millennium Digital Copyright Act...cough) Sometimes those things we think are harmless or even those things we think are "good", have unseen or at least unforeseen consequences. Continuing that thought, not all things we view as "bad" are actually immoral in the end. "Bad" things often have positive influence. Morality is fairly fluid in history with very few constants, Bible included.

 

#3. Why would anyone want FrontRow without the remote? It's really not useful. Yeah, it's pretty to look at, but my computer will do all of those things without FrontRow. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't add any functionality to the computer, right? It's just a nice UI, right?

 

:)

Rob

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I don't understand how you can hack front row. What can you hack thatit doesn't give to you. It'[s a nice program that you use with the remote to sit back relax wtch moive nad listen to music

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I don't understand how you can hack front row. What can you hack thatit doesn't give to you. It'[s a nice program that you use with the remote to sit back relax wtch moive nad listen to music

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I don't understand how you can hack front row.  What can you hack thatit doesn't give to you.  It'[s a nice program that you use with the remote to sit back relax wtch moive nad listen to music

The "hack" allows people like myself that don't have an imac g5 use front row.

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And furthermore, you can buy some gizmo (don't remember which it was now) to add IR to your Mac and if you have the remote then, you can use your hacked Front Row from a distance!

Well, that doesn't solve the moral dilemma to it, but since it can make Front Row as useful to any Mac with that IR-gizmo as to the one it was supposed for, it should make the question more interesting.

Another hack you can get and which I understand less why Apple hasn't released, is PhotoBooth. You can use that with any Mac with iSight, you know.

 

Back to the moral dilemma then - it is of course not legal and to those who believe that we should give Caesar what belongs to him etc., that ends the discussion, so for any Christian it is wrong according to the moral codex they should live up to.

 

For the rest of us, I think it is a grey zone, indeed. As it has been stated, the car analogue failed since Apple hasn't lost anything material. Neither have they lost in an economic sense (which probably should be filed under 'material' but...) since they have chosen not to sell these two applications other than as a part of a package which is way too much to expect of someone who perhaps just want a little bit of fun for him/herself and the buddies (PhotoBooth).

 

If there is a moral wrong in this case and if we can accept a gliding scale between say "white lies" and "lethal sin", I'd say that this one should be put far out on the lighter side of the scale. No sulphurous baths in eternity as a reward, in other words.

 

Apple, on the other hand, is making a mistake not offering at least PhotoBooth as an application anyone can buy. FrontRow is not very useful without the IR and the remote, but it is of course still fun to see it 'live' to get an idea about it...

 

Well, we Europeans are less inclined to divide the world into moral black and white as you Americans, obvioulsy, so there you have my 2 eurocents worth...

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I don't think religion has anything to do with this. I am Jewish and I have Front Row on both my Macs.

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I am not sure about the car analogy. If I steal the car then I am derpriving you of a car as well as possible future use of the car.

 

Again I pose the point - Who suffers?

 

It doesn't matter weather anyone suffers, it's wrong regardless. No one suffers from many things that are wrong, but that doesn't make them right.[/quote

 

Well if wrong things don't hurt anyone then why are they wrong and more to the point who said they are wrong and what superhuman right has this person to make the thing wrong that doesn't hurt anyone?

 

I think that maxman should download the program again and play with it as much as he likes. He is the best advert for apple around! I know that apple would have at least £20000 less if I hadn't been playing around with apps and hardware to find out how to use them and which ones to use.

 

Bottom line, a law that makes Maxman into a criminal when he is clearly not a threat to the world is the biggest wrong.

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If you buy a computer with a licenced copy of front row, would it be legal to use that copy as a licence for other computers? (eg:you buy a mac mini and place on your iBook for travel)?

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If you buy a computer with a licenced copy of front row, would it be legal to use that copy as a licence for other computers? (eg:you buy a mac mini and place on your iBook for travel)?

No. It is for the computer you buy it on. Just how OS X is only for the computer it comes with.

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hello all, its max, the guy who started what has been a very juicy discussion that i think has the wrong heading. The question at hand is not about front row, its about stealing software, after some basic though after posting that initial post, i realized that i was stealing software (by hacking frontrow) and immediately reformatted my mac.

 

heres the deal, software is very easy to steal and it does not have that same guilty felling as stealing something tangible, but the truth is download Photoshop CS2 off of bit torrent is just like walking in to comp usa grabbing the box off of the shelf and putting it under your jacket, its wrong, sure it might not fell wrong cause you are just moving your mouse and clicking buttons, but i could use my mac to wire $2,000 in to my bank account from someone else's (if i knew how) and that is still stealing the money, just think if you have a copy of CS2, 1000 mp3s, and a few movies off of bit torrent, that is about $2,000 worth of stuff stolen! Now to the topic at hand, front row is a piece of software that is exclusive to the new intel macs, and the imac g5 with isight, it is not for use on other macs, and its not free, and its not for sale, i don't know how much its worth, but its worth something and just because its not for sale does not mean its not stealing if you take it, you would not walk in to that same comp usa and steal the display case, its not for sale, but its still stealing! so please don't steal software, or music, or movies, and get rid of stolen software and media on your hard drive.

 

now i would like to address one other things, as you can see i am anti software hacking, but hardware hacking is different, in my opinion, if i hack my imac so that the vga port works thats no different then boring out the cylinders on my BWM, i am making it better, its mine and i can do what i want with it. now if i change my VIN number on my bwm so that i get free insurance, and don't have to pay for tabs, and get free oil changes, that is wrong.

 

You guys see what i mean?

 

Comments?

 

Sorry to preach, but i wanted you guys to know how i fell and what i think about all this.

 

In Christ

 

Max

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This might be a little off topic, but it is close. I feel little to no guilt bittorrenting comercial apps like photoshop or Final Cut and so on because they are made by huge companies that make billions of dollars each year selling overpriced software to you. A couple hundred thousand dollars will not kill them. However I do feel guilty about if I steal shareware. These apps are made often by one person who needs the money. That is my $.50 (my thoughts are worth a lot of money :D )

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This might be a little off topic, but it is close. I feel little to no guilt bittorrenting comercial apps like photoshop or Final Cut and so on because they are made by huge companies that make billions of dollars each year selling overpriced software to you. A couple hundred thousand dollars will not kill them. However I do feel guilty about if I steal shareware. These apps are made often by one person who needs the money. That is my $.50 (my thoughts are worth a lot of money :D )

 

50 cents for your thoughts is too much for me, ill find them on Bittorent.

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This might be a little off topic, but it is close. I feel little to no guilt bittorrenting comercial apps like photoshop or Final Cut and so on because they are made by huge companies that make billions of dollars each year selling overpriced software to you. A couple hundred thousand dollars will not kill them. However I do feel guilty about if I steal shareware. These apps are made often by one person who needs the money. That is my $.50 (my thoughts are worth a lot of money :D )

 

50 cents for your thoughts is too much for me, ill find them on Bittorent.

I would pay $5 for a joke like that. :lol:

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hello all, its max, the guy who started what has been a very juicy discussion that i think has the wrong heading. The question at hand is not about front row, its about stealing software, after some basic though after posting that initial post, i realized that i was stealing software (by hacking frontrow) and immediately reformatted my mac.

 

heres the deal, software is very easy to steal and it does not have that same guilty felling as stealing something tangible, but the truth is download Photoshop CS2 off of bit torrent is just like walking in to comp usa grabbing the box off of the shelf and putting it under your jacket, its wrong, sure it might not fell wrong cause you are just moving your mouse and clicking buttons, but i could use my mac to wire $2,000 in to my bank account from someone else's (if i knew how) and that is still stealing the money, just think if you have a copy of CS2, 1000 mp3s, and a few movies off of bit torrent, that is about $2,000 worth of stuff stolen! Now to the topic at hand, front row is a piece of software that is exclusive to the new intel macs, and the imac g5 with isight, it is not for use on other macs, and its not free, and its not for sale, i don't know how much its worth, but its worth something and just because its not for sale does not mean its not stealing if you take it, you would not walk in to that same comp usa and steal the display case, its not for sale, but its still stealing! so please don't steal software, or music, or movies, and get rid of stolen software and media on your hard drive.

 

now i would like to address one other things, as you can see i am anti software hacking, but hardware hacking is different, in my opinion, if i hack my imac so that the vga port works thats no different then boring out the cylinders on my BWM, i am making it better, its mine and i can do what i want with it. now if i change my VIN number on my bwm so that i get free insurance, and don't have to pay for tabs, and get free oil changes, that is wrong.

 

You guys see what i mean?

 

Comments?

 

Sorry to preach, but i wanted you guys to know how i fell and what i think about all this.

 

In Christ

 

Max

 

I know you are young. Must be nice to see things so black and white. Were the crusades right? What about the inquisition? Both things that happenned in history because of the church. Were they right?

 

I have been baptized and had a bar mitzvah and in my opinion mainstream religion is disgusting. The thing is though every religion I have encountered is beautifull if you study a little deeper. If you look at the teachings of christ [not the interpretation but really what christ was talking about], or study kabalah or really get into the hidden and mystical teachings of a religion it is amazing. Not only that but it is far from black and white. Now I am not saying that stealing software is okay, and you are of course entitled to your opinion that it is not, but what I am saying is that what i hear you doing is just repeating simple things that are told in absolutes. Do you really believe that if you are a good christian your whole life you will go to hell because you hacked frontrow? I urge you to look deeper into the gnostic texts and lost gospels, find the deeper older christianity not the institutional church that blinds the populace with easy to comprehend absolutes. Find the hard stuff.

 

That being said; apple probably doesn't sell front row because things like the price of packaging, marketing, and tech support vs the potential units sold. So basically they don't think they can make enough money. Does that then make it wrong to take something that they can't sell to you at a profit? If they sold it they would lose money so for you to take it and have them lose no money is a sin?

 

I am a graphic designer who basically makes his living off of intelectual property but the best thing that could ever happen to me is if a big company stole a design from me. If Adobe stole a logo design for example you don't think that would make me far more money than if they paid me a little for it? I steal all of my software but companies like adobe and apple gained me as a life long customer because of it. The moment I am in a place to afford Adobe's Creative Suite I will buy it.

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I thought long and hard about not replying to this, but Josh's comments are too "odd" to not warrant at least a few questions.

 

I know you are young. Must be nice to see things so black and white. Were the crusades right? What about the inquisition? Both things that happenned in history because of the church. Were they right?

 

I don't think Max was arguing that all things of church origin are right and justified. He's stating that theft is wrong and his readings from the Christian Bible support this idea.

 

Now I am not saying that stealing software is okay, and you are of course entitled to your opinion that it is not, but what I am saying is that what i hear you doing is just repeating simple things that are told in absolutes. I urge you to look deeper into the gnostic texts and lost gospels, find the deeper older christianity not the institutional church that blinds the populace with easy to comprehend absolutes. Find the hard stuff.

 

As someone who's read many of those texts you mention, I don't ever remember finding a passage that justified theft. "If your friend will not sell or give you your desires, take them." -- Yup, didn't find it.

 

If one tries to use religion to justify theft, swindling, or some other act based on greed, wouldn't that person be as guilty of twisting the message of said religion as those who have made it "disgusting" in other ways?

 

I just don't see the grey area in religion regarding theft. However, theft can certainly be justified in other ways.

 

That being said; Apple PROBABLY doesn't sell front row because things like the price of packaging, marketing, and tech support vs the potential units sold. So basically they don't think they can make enough money. Does that then make it wrong to take something that they can't sell to you at a profit? If they sold it they would lose money so for you to take it and have them lose no money is a sin?

 

#1. You've created a BIG "probably". If Apple wanted to distribute FrontRow at a price, it could be a download at the Applestore, mitigating many of those costs you mention. If Apple wanted to sell FrontRow, it would find a way to make money from it.

 

#2. Is it wrong? Yes. If you are taking something you do not have the legal rights to because the company does not want to sell you a legal copy, yes, it is wrong. Is it a sin? only if you think theft is a sin.

 

#3. Taking something without permission is theft. Let's call it what it is.

 

I am a graphic designer who basically makes his living off of intelectual property but the best thing that could ever happen to me is if a big company stole a design from me. If Adobe stole a logo design for example you don't think that would make me far more money than if they paid me a little for it?

 

This is where I get a bit lost. How would this help you make money? Law suit? Fame brought about by a law suit? Unless it's something I haven't thought of, the fact that theft is wrong and illegal would play an integral role in the profit of having something stolen.

 

Of course if they bought one of your designs legally and you could advertise that one of your designs is used by a huge company, wouldn't this non-theft method of getting your design also bring you more profit than the initial purchase, much like the theft without the law suit?

 

 

I steal all of my software but companies like Adobe and Apple gained me as a life long customer because of it. The moment I am in a place to afford Adobe's Creative Suite I will buy it.

 

Now this is a real argument for software theft, economics - not religion. In the long run, companies acquire more paying customers by ignoring some of the theft. In the end, the theft can generate more profits. Of course, if we produce a generation who never comes to believe that eventually paying for software is worth-wild, we might be in some trouble.

 

:wink:

-Rob

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hello again,

 

in response to joshr's post i say this: The problem is you are looking at Christianity in a "what can i get away with" mind set, i understand why you are disgusted with mass religion because many churches have simply turned it in to following a set of rules and regulations. The truth is there is only one religion and there is only one God, God does not call us to "religion", he sent his son to die on the cross so that we could be free from sin, not so that we could have some list of rules, the problem is people's mindset. For me i look at it like this: "how much can a serve the God who sent his one and only son to give me life, and live abundantly, not to mention who has given me the promise of eternal life, how much can i serve him, and how far away from evil can i stay, and the brings be great joy, just the fact that i can serve the creator of the universe, and that he knows me personal and calls me his child!

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I don't think Max was arguing that all things of church origin are right and justified. He's stating that theft is wrong and his readings from the Christian Bible support this idea.

 

and I am arguing that maybe it isn't so black and white what is and is not theft and maybe there are bigger more important things at the core of the religion rather than breaking it down to stealing frontrow. Of course it never mentions theft being okay and I am not arguing that thinking that is somehow wrong. It just seems like what I am hearing from max is really simplistic and it seemed like everyone in the thread was catering to that. I think there is way too much of a gray area here. Is this really theft?

 

#1. You've created a BIG "probably". If Apple wanted to distribute FrontRow at a price, it could be a download at the Applestore, mitigating many of those costs you mention. If Apple wanted to sell FrontRow, it would find a way to make money from it.

 

If apple felt they could make money selling it they would.

 

#2. Is it wrong? Yes. If you are taking something you do not have the legal rights to because the company does not want to sell you a legal copy, yes, it is wrong. Is it a sin? only if you think theft is a sin.

 

I think that there is more to it. Not everything is either stealing or not and even if you say yes this is stealing, the only reason you can buy music from itunes and such is because so many people stole thier music for so long the record companies had to start offering a legal alternative. At one time it was illegal for black people to sit in the front of the bus but Rosa Parks broke the law which lead to the end of segragation. By many of the same arguments I have seen here including your own you would argue she sinned? and it was wrong for her to do what she did?

 

I am a graphic designer who basically makes his living off of intelectual property but the best thing that could ever happen to me is if a big company stole a design from me. If Adobe stole a logo design for example you don't think that would make me far more money than if they paid me a little for it?

 

This is where I get a bit lost. How would this help you make money? Law suit? Fame brought about by a law suit? Unless it's something I haven't thought of, the fact that theft is wrong and illegal would play an integral role in the profit of having something stolen.

 

fair enough, I did a bad job laying out this argument. This would only help me if it were illegal in the first place. Still it go's to support the bigger point I was making about the gray area. It would be illegal for them to steal it from them, maybe even immoral, but certainly beneficial to me. So is it a sin?

 

Good reply I look forward to more.

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